[Off-Topic] Help wanted: Writing a beginner's book to Debian

[Trihexagonal]

It's not about being elitist/1337, as I said, Linux isn't hard to learn.

In your opinion. I'm guessing you know a lot of people who are of the same opinion.

I have met 1, one, person in the last 19 years who actually knew what BSD was, he's dead, and I don't know anyone who uses Linux and don't remember asking anybody if they knew what Linux was that had.

It's a lonely life when you're geeked out and nobody has any idea what you're talking about. I stopped talking about it long ago, and bots? Now that's just tooo weird.

In the past Linux has gotten a bad rep for being for geeks/nerds only. It's harder than Windows for many, but it's not rocket science. I just feel like people should put in the effort to learn it on their own. Seeking out a guide isn't hard to do, and if one is really motivated to find the info they need, then it stands to reason that they would do exactly that. And they would likely happen upon the Debian Reference I already mentioned, if they were looking for info specific to this distro.

Now you're feeling they should be able to do something.

I taught myself to use every computer and OS I've ever touched from an AppleII to SysV UNIX, quit school in 10th Grade and never taken a computer class in my life.

Bur that's me. Or used to be.

They don't know anything about man pages and the like and frustration sets in easily when you don't know what you're doing and can't figure things out. I was so dumb in 2005 I didn't even think the FreeBSD Handbook applied to PC-BSD.. But dumb as I was on that point, I didn't need it and learn best hands-on. Some of them may be diamonds in the rough that just need a little polish.

They are going to need some handholding.That's not my style, and it doesn't happen in the FreeBSD forums, but I spelled it out step-by-step to take them from installation of the FreeBSD base system to a Fluxbox desktop using ports for 3rd party programs.

I am a huge proponent of Nature's Way, but as long as you are trying I'll help. But at some point kick you out the nest and you fly or flop, because that is my style.

It's also already been said that a book would probably be out of date in a few yrs, this often is the case with books that fall in the manual/how to/reference category. Yet another reason to not write yet another book. It's not like a novel, say, The Hobbit, which is entirely fiction and will still be read centuries from now.

I updated mine as needed when there was a version bump. Doesn't that just happen once a year with Debian? Sam's Learn Linux in 24 Hours seemed to manage and roll with the changes.

I don't think that should be something so insurmountable as to make the whole endeavor a moot point. He is to be commended for wanting to give back to the community and encouraged, not discouraged.

IMO, the way I'm feeling it anyway.

[Uptorn]

These people are just lazy, period. Linux generally isn't hard to learn if you're committed, but it does require more dedication than mainstream Windows, so this dedication should be matched with a willingness to search for the info that will aid in learning it.

IMO Windows is more difficult to learn, considering all its abstractions and inconsistencies. If somebody were to start from a totally blank slate with Windows, it would probably be just as frustrating an experience as first time Linux is often accused of.

[Hetzer]

If someone is too ignorant or dumb to get the idea to search out and find said guide, then they have no business using Debian or Linux, such a person should just use Windows. These people are just lazy, period.

You'll never bring in new users to Debian or see the fabled Year of the Linux Desktop with that elitist attitude.

I don't know how it's "elitist" to say that one should do their research when trying something new. I mean, ain't that always the first thing to do?

And, by the way, if someone's too lazy to search for quick start / guide / alike, I'd not expect him/her as well to even consider looking for a book...

[Enigma83]

If someone is too ignorant or dumb to get the idea to search out and find said guide, then they have no business using Debian or Linux, such a person should just use Windows. These people are just lazy, period.

You'll never bring in new users to Debian or see the fabled Year of the Linux Desktop with that elitist attitude.

I don't know how it's "elitist" to say that one should do their research when trying something new. I mean, ain't that always the first thing to do?

And, by the way, if someone's too lazy to search for quick start / guide / alike, I'd not expect him/her as well to even consider looking for a book...

You just read my mind. But of course I can't say that on the Debian forum, lest some member falsely accuse me of being elitist.

[Enigma83]

These people are just lazy, period. Linux generally isn't hard to learn if you're committed, but it does require more dedication than mainstream Windows, so this dedication should be matched with a willingness to search for the info that will aid in learning it.

IMO Windows is more difficult to learn, considering all its abstractions and inconsistencies. If somebody were to start from a totally blank slate with Windows, it would probably be just as frustrating an experience as first time Linux is often accused of.

There are many more Linux distros than the number of versions of Windows that have been released. Each with their own differences and philosophies. Good luck distro hopping, you'll have to re-learn so much from scratch. Linux is one of the most fractured OSes out there, forgive me for blatantly ignoring that Linux is actually just the kernel rather than the userland OS. I know the difference but choose to ignore it since "Linux" is popularly known as the OS itself, despite this being technically incorrect.

I still assert that Linux is harder than Windows, because of this alone.

[Trihexagonal]

I don't know how it's "elitist" to say that one should do their research when trying something new. I mean, ain't that always the first thing to do?

And, by the way, if someone's too lazy to search for quick start / guide / alike, I'd not expect him/her as well to even consider looking for a book...

We weren't talking about your thoughts, expectations or view of elitism and it has no bearing on the situation.

It's how new users view your response, what they think and their expectations. That is pretty much going to determine if they become Linux users or go back to Windows.

As far as elitism goes, not everyone who uses Linux can use BSD, but everyone who uses BSD can use Linux.
Sans demeaning references as to why.

Do you like the fit of that shoe, Sir? Or would you prefer I show you another?

Linux isn't as 1337 as BSD, but gets more new users. If you can see the connection.

[Uptorn]

There are many more Linux distros than the number of versions of Windows that have been released. Each with their own differences and philosophies. Good luck distro hopping, you'll have to re-learn so much from scratch. Linux is one of the most fractured OSes out there, forgive me for blatantly ignoring that Linux is actually just the kernel rather than the userland OS. I know the difference but choose to ignore it since "Linux" is popularly known as the OS itself, despite this being technically incorrect.

I still assert that Linux is harder than Windows, because of this alone.

I also like to use the name Linux in the abstract. Giving any more specificity than that can lead to assumptions.

You raise a fair assessment that I should consider. However, I think it is less true today than it was years ago. Many distros (the big ones, anyway) have standardized around systemd. That really only leaves the default desktop environment and the package manager as the distinguishing characteristics of a distribution that average users will immediately notice.

Also, with so many distributions being based on the big four (for five?), if you've learned, say, Debian, then you also will have learned just about every downstream distribution by proxy.

As an anecdote, I will say that I much prefer introducing people who have had no prior experience with any computers at all to Linux. They approach it without many preconceived notions of how they think things should work. In contrast, trying to introduce people who have had substantial exposure to proprietary commercial operating systems typically ends in frustration. Try to help a PC gamer with exploring Linux? Good luck! heh

[Enigma83]

There are many more Linux distros than the number of versions of Windows that have been released. Each with their own differences and philosophies. Good luck distro hopping, you'll have to re-learn so much from scratch. Linux is one of the most fractured OSes out there, forgive me for blatantly ignoring that Linux is actually just the kernel rather than the userland OS. I know the difference but choose to ignore it since "Linux" is popularly known as the OS itself, despite this being technically incorrect.

I still assert that Linux is harder than Windows, because of this alone.

I also like to use the name Linux in the abstract. Giving any more specificity than that can lead to assumptions.

You raise a fair assessment that I should consider. However, I think it is less true today than it was years ago. Many distros (the big ones, anyway) have standardized around systemd. That really only leaves the default desktop environment and the package manager as the distinguishing characteristics of a distribution that average users will immediately notice.

Also, with so many distributions being based on the big four (for five?), if you've learned, say, Debian, then you also will have learned just about every downstream distribution by proxy.

As an anecdote, I will say that I much prefer introducing people who have had no prior experience with any computers at all to Linux. They approach it without many preconceived notions of how they think things should work. In contrast, trying to introduce people who have had substantial exposure to proprietary commercial operating systems typically ends in frustration. Try to help a PC gamer with exploring Linux? Good luck! heh

I prefer not to directly advocate for Linux to anyone. I may mention it in passing while in the course of a conversation, but I won't push if it seems they're not open to it. It's not my job to be an evangelical Tux pusher. People will use whatever OS they feel is suitable for them, I have no right to try to force my preferred OS on them. Or beliefs, etc. I view it as "what would I think if I were in their shoes?"

[Enigma83]

I don't know how it's "elitist" to say that one should do their research when trying something new. I mean, ain't that always the first thing to do?

And, by the way, if someone's too lazy to search for quick start / guide / alike, I'd not expect him/her as well to even consider looking for a book...

We weren't talking about your thoughts, expectations or view of elitism and it has no bearing on the situation.

It's how new users view your response, what they think and their expectations. That is pretty much going to determine if they become Linux users or go back to Windows.

As far as elitism goes, not everyone who uses Linux can use BSD, but everyone who uses BSD can use Linux.
Sans demeaning references as to why.

Do you like the fit of that shoe, Sir? Or would you prefer I show you another?

Linux isn't as 1337 as BSD, but gets more new users. If you can see the connection.

Linux is compatible with more hardware. And unlike FreeBSD, Linux is just the kernel, as most of us know. Whereas with FreeBSD, the kernel and userland are one, they ship as a complete, inseparable unit. I'd agree that that the BSDs are more elite, but only because they're more niche and not as widely used.

[Trihexagonal]

I just wanted to point out what new users perceive as harsh can vary widely from what an experienced user would think harsh, snobbery, or leetism

And don't always pass it off as being lazy. If you're dumb today there's always hope for tomorrow. Cut them some slack today and go from there.

When I first came to this forum an couple years ago I had to google Debian forums to get the link The number two spot on that search was "Debian forums rude".

I passed that on, at just the right moment, and it seems Admin took it to heart and attitudes were adjusted for the better.

I would like to suggest the Task Analysis format for the book. That would be unique from other books, wouldn't need changed much from year to year and it just doesn't get any easier than that when it's broken down and spelled out step by step. It's sure to be a best seller.

You can look at mine for structure reference to get the general feel for it.

https://trihexagonal.org/tutorial.html

[Trihexagonal]

For clarity, I am not talking about, or in any way a proponent of, dumbing-down the userbase.

With the exception of an infulx or people who are, and at this moment experiencing strange new rituals that will frighten away some and make Sorcerers or others.

Everyone should be able to use the command line, be confident and fluent in preforming routine Administrative Tasks on, and setting up, their machine.

You just have to spell it out for them.
Nature's Way will do the rest.

[m4c-attack]

Late AF and the book might be finished by now but an interesting post so I wanted to add my $0.02:

Feedback on the structure and content
Underlined additions are suggested chapters. Bullet point are sub-chapters


Part 1: Introduction to Debian
History and Philosophy of Debian
Advantages of using Debian

• Expecting friction & setbacks when using a new OS: Reminding users that they have likely been using a different OS for years, and that it'll take time to reach the same level of competency on Debian and that's OK

Understanding Different Debian Releases (Stable, Testing, Unstable)
Desktop environments


Part 2: Getting Started with Debian
Downloading the installer image
Installation process (graphical and command-line)
Basic system configuration (keyboard, language, etc.)

Part 3: Essential Tools and Techniques
Understanding permissions
Navigating the file system with the terminal

• Deep dive into using man when using the terminal

Text editor (nano)
Package management with apt

• Here, the `hello` package might be a useful tool. It's basically the `hello-world` of apt

User and group management and maintenance
Troubleshooting tips

• How to determine what is the important part of the output of an error message to search for results faster (and also, to generally slow down and read what the error is instead of panicking)
• The importance of backing up early & often (especially when you're new and most liable to break stuff).
• Pros & Cons of using LLMs when you can't find a solution online

Part 4: Resources and Community
Official Debian Documentation
Online forum
Contributing to Debian
Supplementing Apt

• Benefits/Drawbacks of Flatpak/AppImages (and to a lesser degree Snap)
• GitHub
• Backports
• Adding to $PATH & Proper install locations (~/.local/bin, etc)

Appendix


Recommendations for existing resources: I will try to look for the newest and best books, manuals and websites. What books, manuals or websites do you suggest?
ArchWiki is obvious, but I wanted to put into words why I prefer their articles to official Debian articles: Both sites have varying degrees of informality but ArchWiki manage to be concise where Debian often feels like reading multiple tangentially-related paragraphs to get a simple answer.

My ability to grow w/ Linux was based on two Udemy Courses I purchased for around $10/each: A general Linux course & a follow-up one on bash scripting. Both really gave me a solid footing and I revisit my notes when i want to do more intermediate things w/i a terminal. With that said, they were only helpful when everything was going right. These skills were irrelevant when my computer booted to a black screen (driver issues) or kept crashing after waking from hibernation (KDE/X11 issues) or the simple cron job that I wrote never executes (env variables created by cron issues).

General suggestions: Any advice you have for making the book informative, engaging, and helpful would be greatly appreciated.
One overarching frustration I had when starting w/ Debian was that the official documentation goes out of its way to be unopinionated in places that harm newbies and serve no benefit to experienced users. For example the official install page lists 9 options that are all equal in terms of prominence, even though my uneducated guess is that +50% of Debian users (and +90% of newbies) will use amd64. Technically it's listed first but in 2024, the most common answer is typically made more obvious from a UI-perspective...

I've been w/ Debian for over a year, but I still remember that I had to pause a video tutorial I was following and spend a few hours trying to determine the difference in architectures (or what netinst was or why cdrom was so prominently featured, etc) for the first few hours of my journey. It was hard just finding the right file to install and I ended up finding an install script on GitHub which is the least secure method available. I think that had the install guide been more opinionated (based on what is most common for new users) instead of trying to appear as objective as possible, I would've had a much smoother experience. I appreciate that Debian supports so many architectures and install methods, but IMO it would be more advantageous to make clear what is the most likely install method for the majority of users. I enjoy the fact that Debian is unopinionated software, but when it comes to documentation, new users need opinionated hand-holding that clears the path of as many obstacles as possible.

Someone experienced enough to write a book on Debian undoubtedly has an opinionated view of how Debian should be used, but on the other hand, ironically that too can be a stumbling block as well in a different way... One question that I hope you'll continually ask yourself when writing the book is whether you would have the same beliefs if you had started learning Linux today as opposed to +10 years ago? I do think that excluding GitHub/Flatpaks/backports/non-Debian repos/etc are understandable from your perspective because those tools were not utilized/available to you when you started your Linux journey and so they seem unnecessary and outside of Debian. With that said, that is also not the world that new Linux users are growing up in. These modern tools standardize software in a way that equalizes and modernizes the Linux OS experience without sacrificing stability (when used properly) and could very well be a large contributing factor for new users taking the plunge into Linux/Debian.

IMO, teaching is analogous to child-rearing in that you want to artfully nudge learners in the direction that your experience has taught you is best, while also accepting the possibility that their experiences and interests may not completely align with yours. There's a balance to strike and you definitely don't want to feel like you're writing a book that goes against what you believe in, but to fall back on the analogy, the kids are going to gain experience regardless, and if not from you, then from other (inexperienced) kids.

Then again, I could be off-base and users that would rather read a book on Debian are also the type of users uninterested in modern (by Linux standards) tools. Kudos for writing the book either way and I'll buy a copy either way.

[Hallvor]

@m4c-attack

This was most constructive feedback, and I have read your post with pleasure and interest. Thank you again for your encouragement and advice.