[Discussion] So ... Debian 12 ... Nightmare or Glorious Bliss? (or you just wish to post ITT with ellipsis ...)

[donald]

Lets bring all the elephants into the room.

This is not a Debian Project official* poll/discussion by any means, but we at FDN have our own corner of the internet and we may as well talk among our community.

For those of us who have moved from Debian 11 bullseye to Debian 12 bookworm:

How is it?

What do you think could have been done better FROM Debian regarding:

• The Software
  The Release Notes
  The Debian social media coverage of the event
  The Installation Guide
  The Resources made available to you
  The Website updates
  The ease to contact Debian Developers with issues pre/post release
  The ease of the update
  ...
  (Insert your own)

What would you like to see more of or less of specific to Debian releases and development?
What direction would you like to see Debian moving toward regarding hardware?
What direction would you like to see Debian moving toward regarding software?



*Not official by any means, but the responses from this thread may be sent upstream. This is your opportunity to speak about the software you love; embrace it and employ your voice(s). Debian is not only Developers, Debian is people.

These polls/asks tend to be written with what we think at the time is ideal, generally we find after the 1st 5 or so posts that we needed to shift the focus. To acquiesce toward the latter, all poll options allow for voting changes. Be mindful for the 1st 3 or 4 days the poll options may change as members reply, so please participate and check in again to see if the options have changed or moved, you can update or re-vote. The poll is limited to 5 choices of 15 options.

Comments and replies are not just welcomed but encouraged.

Thank you!

[Random_Troll]

moved from Debian 11 bullseye to Debian 12 bookworm

Before the first point release? I don't think so. Let the guinea pigs test for a bit first. @{guinea pigs}: thanks!

[pizza-rat]

The upgrade went very smoothly and I've run into no issues so far. In general, much more polished feeling than any other distros I've used recently.

The only other thing I'd want out of Debian in the future: other init systems as options as they mature. Aside from what I've heard from others more knowledgeable on the subject than myself, systemd still gives me some weird hangups on shutdowns at times that I never had on Gentoo's OpenRC.

[Random_Troll]

The only other thing I'd want out of Debian in the future: other init systems as options

You can still use sysvinit with Debian bookworm, it is listed as one of the init package's dependencies.

We would also still have runit-init as an option if @Head_on_a_Stick hadn't caused it to be removed...

[pizza-rat]

The only other thing I'd want out of Debian in the future: other init systems as options

You can still use sysvinit with Debian bookworm, it is listed as one of the init package's dependencies.

We would also still have runit-init as an option if @Head_on_a_Stick hadn't caused it to be removed...

Ooh interesting, didn't know that. Is it like Gentoo where software that depends on systemd is patched to work with other init systems (sysvinit in this case)? Or is it more a case of finding alternative software/approaches for everything that would require systemd? I may have to look more deeply into this, perhaps try it in a VM first...

[Random_Troll]

Some packages have stopped supplying sysvinit scripts since the resolution vote on the matter but thankfully Devuan have stepped up and offer an orphan-sysvinit-scripts package that helps. You will probably find it easier to run a headless system without systemd; a graphical desktop might require more work (I haven't tried either though).

[steve_v]

Sysv init support still lackluster. OpenRC and runit support still pathetic. Otherwise a serviceable and uneventful release (as it should be).
I'll consider running Debian for serious work again just as soon as non-systemd init options (including functional init scripts and OOB configuration for common packages) improve.

[sunrat]

I have a fresh Bookworm in a separate partition multiboot. So far it works fine and I like it.
However I will still be using Bullseye as my main driver for the near future as it both benefits from and suffers from 2.5 years of tweaking, installing and removing packages out of curiosity to test, building applications from source, and several 3rd party repos. So I will slowly sort the wheat from the chaff and transfer the best bits over to Bookworm.
I prefer a fresh install of new releases as a spring cleaning measure.

One thing pleases me about Bookworm's new KDE Plasma (netinstall plus kde-plasma-desktop metapackage) is that PulseAudio is still default, rather than Pipewire (which reportedly is forced on Gnome installs). I use it for audio production and have Pulse, JACK, and ALSA all working in glorious harmony on Bullseye. There is a lengthy discussion on LinuxMusicians forum where some users have satisfactory performance from PW and some do not (usually depending on hardware). The main PW dev, Wim Taymans, is engaged in the discussion and stated that there is much work happening to address this but likely won't be finished until the end of the year.
Quote from wtay:

I think we can conclude that the timer based scheduling doesn't work reliably enough for pro audio so we're going to have to add IRQ based scheduling like what jack does. It just takes some time to nicely design this into the existing stuff. It's not finished yet, we're working on it...

So currently the old way works as well as always. Eventually the New World Order of Pipewire should work well too. I'm staying with the old way for now.

[BBQdave]

I use my laptop as a workstation. Vanilla Debian 12 (Gnome) with Google Chrome added and GIMP added.

The default software is excellent for my needs. The added (updated for this release) GIMP is great for my amateur photography needs.

For my basic workstation use: all functions great, all functions smoothly, and all is stable

This release is yet another statement by Debian of a community of folks working together to benefit all. Thanks

[None1975]

Works very well with my set up (Mate de and Dwm). Great release.

[kent_dorfman766]

so far, so good. I rebuilt an SMP rackmount machine with bookworm and have slowly been migrating my stuff back onto it. The idea being that in general I want that host to be my professional workstation, while I will maintain my bullseye workstation as my personal system for some time. Siince I'm on hiatus from paid work right now, I can afford to play with 12 on a workstation.

Usually takes me a couple of months to configure a machine so I still have a lot to do before potentially running into problems.

Only issue so far is that the 12 machine has an AMD GPU and I'm not impressed with the FOSS driver performance.

seems I spoke too soon. bookworm on my other workstation throws me into library dependency hell in my custom built multimedia processing toolchain.

[exploder]

Debian 12 far exceeds all my expectations! Did the network install on 3 systems and not one single problem or anything to fix. I never expected Wayland to work so well! Other distros had me convinced Wayland was still pretty buggy, not the case at all on Debian 12. Everything in Debian 12 was VERY well tested and it shows!

All the pieces in this release fit together so well! I'm a car guy and for me Debian 12 is the Toyota Corolla of distro's. Built with the highest quality standards and extremely reliable. I have better things to do than fix my own systems or worry about updates breaking things. Debian 12 raises the bar for quality of an LTS release in my experience.

I really enjoy using Debian 12 and would even go so far to say it is the best experience I have ever had in all my years of Linux use. Every single person involved with this release should be very proud of what has been achieved. With the current software landscape ever changing, Debian has done the impossible and combined all the right things and made all the right decisions.

It will take some time getting used to everything just working!

[ticojohn]

moved from Debian 11 bullseye to Debian 12 bookworm

Before the first point release? I don't think so. Let the guinea pigs test for a bit first. @{guinea pigs}: thanks!

I upgraded at RC2 (as I did with Bullseye, Buster, and Stretch). Absolutely no problems with the Bookworm upgrade, just as with all the previous upgrades.

[Fossy]

It is and always will be an exciting moment , but it is accomplished ( clean install / Single Boot ) … a Glorius Bliss !

Code: Select all

phil@phil-gl753vd:~$ inxi -Fxpmrz 
System:
  Kernel: 6.1.0-9-amd64 arch: x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 12.2.0
    Desktop: Cinnamon v: 5.6.8 Distro: Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm)
Machine:
  Type: Laptop System: ASUSTeK product: GL753VD v: 1.0
    serial: <superuser required>
  Mobo: ASUSTeK model: GL753VD v: 1.0 serial: <superuser required>
    UEFI: American Megatrends v: GL753VD.308 date: 04/29/2019
Battery:
  ID-1: BAT0 charge: 38.6 Wh (98.2%) condition: 39.3/47.5 Wh (82.6%)
    volts: 16.2 min: 14.4 model: Simplo SDI ICR18650 status: not charging
Memory:
  RAM: total: 7.64 GiB used: 2.36 GiB (30.9%)
  RAM Report: permissions: Unable to run dmidecode. Root privileges
    required.
CPU:
  Info: quad core model: Intel Core i7-7700HQ bits: 64 type: MT MCP
    arch: Kaby Lake rev: 9 cache: L1: 256 KiB L2: 1024 KiB L3: 6 MiB
  Speed (MHz): avg: 2800 min/max: 800/3800 cores: 1: 2800 2: 2800 3: 2800
    4: 2800 5: 2800 6: 2800 7: 2800 8: 2800 bogomips: 44798
  Flags: avx avx2 ht lm nx pae sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 sse4_2 ssse3 vmx
Graphics:
  Device-1: Intel HD Graphics 630 vendor: ASUSTeK driver: i915 v: kernel
    arch: Gen-9.5 bus-ID: 00:02.0
  Device-2: NVIDIA GP107M [GeForce GTX 1050 Mobile] vendor: ASUSTeK
    driver: nouveau v: kernel arch: Pascal bus-ID: 01:00.0 temp: 35.0 C
  Device-3: IMC Networks USB2.0 HD UVC WebCam type: USB driver: uvcvideo
    bus-ID: 1-11:5
  Display: x11 server: X.Org v: 1.21.1.7 with: Xwayland v: 22.1.9 driver: X:
    loaded: modesetting unloaded: fbdev,vesa dri: iris gpu: i915
    resolution: 1920x1080~60Hz
  API: OpenGL v: 4.6 Mesa 22.3.6 renderer: Mesa Intel HD Graphics 630 (KBL
    GT2) direct-render: Yes
Audio:
  Device-1: Intel CM238 HD Audio vendor: ASUSTeK driver: snd_hda_intel
    v: kernel bus-ID: 00:1f.3
  API: ALSA v: k6.1.0-9-amd64 status: kernel-api
  Server-1: PipeWire v: 0.3.65 status: active
  Server-2: PulseAudio v: 16.1 status: off (using pipewire-pulse)
Network:
  Device-1: Intel Wireless 7265 driver: iwlwifi v: kernel bus-ID: 02:00.0
  IF: wlp2s0 state: up mac: <filter>
  Device-2: Realtek RTL8111/8168/8411 PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet
    vendor: ASUSTeK driver: r8169 v: kernel port: d000 bus-ID: 03:00.0
  IF: enp3s0 state: down mac: <filter>
Bluetooth:
  Device-1: Intel Bluetooth wireless interface type: USB driver: btusb v: 0.8
    bus-ID: 1-9:4
  Report: hciconfig ID: hci0 rfk-id: 1 state: up address: <filter> bt-v: 2.1
    lmp-v: 4.2
Drives:
  Local Storage: total: 119.24 GiB used: 32.5 GiB (27.3%)
  ID-1: /dev/sda vendor: SK Hynix model: HFS128G39TND-N210A size: 119.24 GiB
Partition:
  ID-1: / size: 107.86 GiB used: 32.49 GiB (30.1%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda2
  ID-2: /boot/efi size: 299.4 MiB used: 5.8 MiB (1.9%) fs: vfat
    dev: /dev/sda1
Swap:
  ID-1: swap-1 type: partition size: 8.8 GiB used: 0 KiB (0.0%) dev: /dev/sda3
Sensors:
  System Temperatures: cpu: 40.0 C pch: 47.0 C mobo: N/A gpu: nouveau
    temp: 35.0 C
  Fan Speeds (RPM): cpu: 2000
Repos:
  Packages: 2396
  Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list
    1: deb http://deb.debian.org/debian bookworm main non-free-firmware
    2: deb http://deb.debian.org/debian bookworm-updates main non-free-firmware
    3: deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security/ bookworm-security main non-free-firmware
  Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/eid.list
    1: deb https://files.eid.belgium.be/debian bookworm main
Info:
  Processes: 228 Uptime: 17m Init: systemd target: graphical (5) Compilers:
  gcc: 12.2.0 Shell: Bash v: 5.2.15 inxi: 3.3.26
phil@phil-gl753vd:~$

[dotlj]

I also prefer a fresh install to start without unwanted things from installing and removing packages, trying lots of things.
As I have a few boxes to play with, I do upgrade one and compare the results.
Fresh installations mean more time tweaking to be sure that I have all the packages that I like, but that's what I like about Debian, being able to make each install custom and fit for purpose.
I like Bookworm, its an improvement over Bullseye, which I'm still using on my main machine, but I'm about to replace it with Bookworm.
Bookworm is certainly ready and well worth it.

[huseyincan]

We are in 2023 a lot of bluetooth codecs are supported now. However one is not AAC, please new versions of releated packages support it.

[Sjaak Straver]

I think the debian 12 is the best distro so far. Bravo especially the kde version super fast.
Yours sincerely,
Jack

[Fossy]

It has been busy days ; four fresh / Single Boot Bookworm installations and one upgraded from Bullseye 11.7 for the sake of the latter acting as an interface for our HP LaserJet Pro MFP M130fw which is USB set up (no wifi) and scans via the Vuescan program ... Did not want to take the risk of still being faced with a reinstallation of ditto printer (*)
All went smoothly and without problems were it not that on three of the laptops at startup I was saddled with the well-known ACPI errors messages ... which I have learned to live with

(*) edit :
After the upgrade, I found that the Vuescan program was removed ... Just had to reinstall the Vuescan program and enter my user license .
The original printer settings remained untouched ... hallelujah .

Last but not least , my Lady and the children unanimously agree , their personal Bookworm 12 laptop is more responsive than bullseye 11 ... subjective perception ?

I still like Debian

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

[Dude Guyman]

My experience was:

1. Could not install because the installer loads up all corrupted. Worked around that by using 'vga=normal fb=false' resulting in a working non-graphical installer.
2. Tried to update and got stuck with this issue. It's basically bricked itself.

Once that was all sorted out though, it has been very good!

[lewulff]

Overall I liked the Debian 12 release. However there were a few issues I ran across during installation. No deal breakers, but annoying non the less.

For whatever reason I keep having issues installing Debian 12 in UEFI mode in Virtual Box, it generally goes to a gray screen after selecting install method. However the issue is not consistent, and some times it works fine. I have not had the time to do a complete investigation, so it may be a VB problem and not a Debian problem.

I also had issues during install with setting up a network manually. It did not. Not a big issue as it is easy enough to correct after install, but still a bit annoying.

Otherwise I am pleased with the release, and am running it on my media server.

www.retiredtechie.com